[kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

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[kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Barry Leiba
Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There is one thing I'd like to discuss here (lower-case "discuss"):

   This document obsoletes RFC 4402 and reclassifies that document as
   historic.

We don't have a clear sense of what "historic" means and how it interacts
with "obsolete", so let me start with how I look at it:
I think that a newer version of a protocol specification makes the old
version of that protocol obsolete.
I think that a protocol (but not a version) that is no longer recommended
for use might become historic.
I think that if we have a protocol called ABCDP, and we make a new
protocol called LMNOP that replaces ABCDP, we might likely make ABCDP
historic.
I think that if we then have an updated version of LMNOP, that obsoletes
the earlier version... but it doesn't make it historic.

So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.


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Re: [kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Alvaro Retana (aretana)
On 12/16/15, 12:35 PM, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba"
<[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

>So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
>here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.

I agree.

Alvaro.

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Re: [kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Stephen Farrell


On 17/12/15 14:03, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote:
> On 12/16/15, 12:35 PM, "iesg on behalf of Barry Leiba"
> <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
>> here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.
>
> I agree.

OTOH what harm is there is just leaving it as the WG
wanted? I see none.

S.

>
> Alvaro.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kitten mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>

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Re: [kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Barry Leiba
>>> So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
>>> here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.
>
> OTOH what harm is there is just leaving it as the WG
> wanted? I see none.

The possible harm is that someone seeing that 4402 is Historic might
think that the *protocol* described in 4402 is Historic, and that's
not what we mean.  That's why Obsoletes and Historic are different
things.

Barry

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Re: [kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Stephen Farrell


On 17/12/15 14:35, Barry Leiba wrote:

>>>> So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
>>>> here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.
>>
>> OTOH what harm is there is just leaving it as the WG
>> wanted? I see none.
>
> The possible harm is that someone seeing that 4402 is Historic might
> think that the *protocol* described in 4402 is Historic, and that's
> not what we mean.  That's why Obsoletes and Historic are different
> things.

Sure, that's a possible interpretation. My take is that
most RFC labels are ambiguous and slowly fluid (like
treacle:-) so I don't care much.

However in this case the kitten WG interpretation iiuc
is that the PRF in 4402 is historic (this one differing
substantively even if only in one input bit), so I think
we ought all be fine with that. IOW, I think you and they
are both correct if by "protocol" in your text one means
just the PRF.

Nobody is of course saying that Kerberos is historic. (Well,
not v5 anyway;-)

S

>
> Barry
>

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Re: [kitten] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-kitten-rfc4402bis-02: (with COMMENT)

Shawn M Emery
On 12/17/15 07:41 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

>
> On 17/12/15 14:35, Barry Leiba wrote:
>>>>> So I question whether the "reclassifies as historic" is the right thing
>>>>> here or not.  4402 will be marked "obsolete", and that should be enough.
>>> OTOH what harm is there is just leaving it as the WG
>>> wanted? I see none.
>> The possible harm is that someone seeing that 4402 is Historic might
>> think that the *protocol* described in 4402 is Historic, and that's
>> not what we mean.  That's why Obsoletes and Historic are different
>> things.
> Sure, that's a possible interpretation. My take is that
> most RFC labels are ambiguous and slowly fluid (like
> treacle:-) so I don't care much.
>
> However in this case the kitten WG interpretation iiuc
> is that the PRF in 4402 is historic (this one differing
> substantively even if only in one input bit), so I think
> we ought all be fine with that. IOW, I think you and they
> are both correct if by "protocol" in your text one means
> just the PRF.
>
> Nobody is of course saying that Kerberos is historic. (Well,
> not v5 anyway;-)

Yes, your differentiation is correct.  There was a least one vendor that
had implemented 4402 as specified and could not interoperate. We want to
make clear that the previous PRF is not to be relied upon (albeit to no
fault of its own).

Shawn.
--

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